This transcript was generated by AI, so it may contain errors, but you can listen to the entire episode via this link: Episode 110: The Forgotten Million, featuring guest Mattias Munter from Skandia on financial security

Mattias Munther
That works out to about a quarter of an hour a year.

Olof Gränsström
You haven't really done a good job here, Mattias. If people are walking around worried… Things should be fair around here.

Olof Gränsström
Labor input is actually quite low. So why are we so worried? This really is a matter of knowledge. We need a little financial education here.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Welcome to Globenot Sanity Check. This used to be called Novo Sanity Check, but now we’re moving this podcast over to the Globenot think tank. And for this episode, I’m joined not only by my co-founder Olof Glänström, but also by our first sponsor representative, Mattias Munter from Scandia. Welcome! Thank you!

Olof Gränsström
Thank you very much; it's great to be here.

Torbjörn Sjöström
What I’ve noticed more and more is that… The silent majority is very rarely heard. We focus so much on the extreme side of things. That’s what we see on social media. News outlets get caught up in that. It’s not that they don’t care about the other issues, but it’s just so alluring. So I felt that we needed to conduct independent research and shine some light on issues that aren’t getting enough attention. But at the same time, we also need to look more closely at the actual statistics. So we’ve brought in some researchers. Andreas Bergen was the first researcher to jump on board with this.

Torbjörn Sjöström
But in connection with this, Scandia also agreed to get involved and support us, for which I am very, very grateful. And you’re sponsoring the first report we released during Allmedal Week, which focuses on financial security. But could you start by explaining a little bit about your reasoning? It wasn’t just your decision, but you were involved in it anyway.

Mattias Munther
As Scandia—with pensions as our core business, a bank within the group, workplace pension plans, and other types of security insurance tied specifically to financial security—we have our vision: we’re talking about security for generations. In other words, what we’re doing is a very long-term endeavor. We need to take a broader view and look at these issues. We need to take a long-term perspective—which, as you say, is sometimes missing from the debate and discussion. That’s why we think this was an exciting way to delve a little deeper into how people feel, what the situation looks like today, and what their expectations are for the future. Faith in the future is, after all, a key factor here.

Mattias Munther
With that in mind, we thought it made a lot of sense to take this first step together and do so under the umbrella of financial security.

Torbjörn Sjöström
We think this is really exciting. Olof, you were on stage at Almedalen and shared the stage with Mattias, too. We’ll link to that video later as well, since you can watch the entire thing afterward. But Olof, maybe we should dive right into the report and hear some of your thoughts. For those who haven’t read it—it’s available on Globenot’s website, so we won’t go over the entire report here. But we thought we’d start with a broader perspective first.

Olof Gränsström
What I think is so important about the issue of financial security—it’s not just about financial security, but what’s so clear in society right now—is that the world has become so complex. We have to make so many decisions; we need a lot of knowledge. And that knowledge is very easily accessible. That’s kind of the other side of Glubbnot, too. I have a background in this. I come from and worked at the Hans Rosling Foundation, Gapminder. There, we looked for knowledge gaps to fill. And that’s an important point here as well. I believe that when it comes to financial security…

Olof Gränsström
Because it’s easy to feel insecure. The world feels insecure. There’s a war going on. Interest rates are higher now than they used to be—or rather, than they actually are. Have retirees been better off? We hear about pensioners living in poverty. Are retirees worse off? Are retirees feeling insecure? I mean, what is knowledge? What do we believe? What’s old? What’s new? There’s so much we need to understand before we can even begin to talk about financial security. And ultimately, I also think it comes down to this: how can we make people feel more secure?

Olof Gränsström
They need to realize, perhaps, that many people feel insecure about… Did I make the right choice? Have I been active enough? Then we need to understand—not just as a society—but that maybe you don’t have to be that active. You can get into that later, Mattias. Are many people worried? Why are they worried? Is it just a feeling? Or is it that they know they should be worried based on facts? Help people develop a more knowledge-based view of the world.

Olof Gränsström
It all starts, after all, with actually asking people.

Mattias Munther
Yes, anxiety is alleviated through greater knowledge. After all, that’s what can simply provide greater peace of mind and a sense of better control.

Torbjörn Sjöström
So perhaps we should start with this: 21% of Swedes feel they do not have good financial security today. In other words, 75% say they do.

Torbjörn Sjöström
And you could say that it’s both good and bad that nearly one in five people don’t feel that way. It’s a serious matter—we shouldn’t underestimate it—but the fact remains that most people still feel fairly secure, and I think many might be a little surprised that the number wasn’t higher. In general, we’re seeing a trend now in Sweden and in the West where people think they’re doing reasonably well—you might be worried, but you don’t realize that you’re usually in the majority. And if you’re struggling right now, I think you’re part of the overwhelming majority.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Everyone is suffering, and no one cares. So I guess that’s kind of the underlying perspective here.

Olof Gränsström
One thing I find a bit intriguing is that 75% feel financially secure. Yet more than 60% are worried about the future.

Olof Gränsström
Let’s start by saying this: what we can control, what’s happening right here and now—that’s where we have the knowledge you’re talking about, Mattias. That’s where we can feel secure; after all, a clear majority feels safe there. We absolutely shouldn’t… There’s a large group of people living in financial insecurity, but there are also a great many who feel anxious about the future. And somewhere along the line, I think people are starting to ask: Why are we secure now, yet anxious about the future?

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, exactly. And there, perhaps, Mattias—because I’ve been thinking quite a bit about that—is also this fatalistic dimension in societal development. And I realize now that this goes a bit beyond the scope of the report, but do you notice this: if you no longer believe you have a future, it can affect your… Think about retirement. Do you see any such connection?

Mattias Munther
I can't say for sure, but it's clear that—it stands to reason that with limited optimism about the future, you'll have less.

Mattias Munther
Incentives and motivation to plan for the long term. That makes perfect sense. When we look at this concern about the future that the report highlights, it’s actually a concern about the future in general, rather than a concern about the economy specifically. So there you have it. If 61% are worried about the future, only a third are specifically worried about the economy. So there’s clearly something else people are worried about when it comes to the future.

Mattias Munther
On a more general note, then.

Olof Gränsström
And I think part of that is precisely about… Now. How things look right here and now. Then we’re in control. Then I know what the situation is. It’s this thing with… I mean, this feeling of anxiety—anxiety about the future. We don’t really know why, but—and I’m not going to badmouth the media here—but when I read the newspapers or look at social media, shouldn’t I be worried about the future?

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yeah, exactly—that’s probably the most sensible thing, unfortunately. The tragic thing right now is that if it’s not war, it’s AI. I mean, there’s always something, and we’re in the middle of an election campaign as we’re recording this, so there isn’t much talk about the future, is there?

Mattias Munther
No, it's mostly about the here and now, and there's a lot of short-sightedness. That's how it goes far too often during an election campaign.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, exactly, and in a way, that’s true too. Because there’s something behind this as well. On the other hand, we see here too that the report shows it’s actually older people who feel they have the highest level of financial security today. Then it declines with age as well, and one thing we note in the report is that it may not be so much about having a lot of money, but rather about having greater predictability.

Mattias Munther
That’s exactly right. I mean, an older person with a pension income has significantly better control and predictability—predictability about what their financial situation will look like today, tomorrow, and the day after. For obvious reasons, that predictability is more uncertain the younger you are. When you may not have established yourself in the job market yet, have more precarious jobs, or are going through a period in life where your financial margins are tighter—perhaps because you have young children or are heavily in debt.

Mattias Munther
There are, of course, more variables at play there. So, once again, it comes back to control and predictability—yes, that becomes more important, and then, as you say, it’s not about the size of the paycheck or the pension check.

Olof Gränsström
But is it our social security system that—and I’m going to be a little provocative here—but we do have pretty good social security in Sweden.

Mattias Munther
Absolutely, we have a well-functioning pension system, and it’s fair to say that the sense of financial security is very strong among the group that is now retired. They live off what the system has provided them. But it’s also fair to say that the system we’ve built up over a long period of time delivers very well in that regard. Then there will always be a discussion about whether there should be more, or less, and how this works for certain groups—specifically regarding occupational pensions and the balance between those who have worked only a little and those who have worked their entire working lives.

Mattias Munther
Well, there is—and there always will be—a debate about this, but generally speaking, the system provides good financial security for the vast majority of people.

Olof Gränsström
I think that, when I saw this, it struck a chord with someone like me who hasn’t worked on pension issues as extensively as you have. So that’s how it is—oh, what a relief. Now I feel a little more at ease about my retirement. If most retirees feel they’re doing well—from a financial perspective—and feel secure, that should be something we’re more willing to talk about. And maybe we shouldn’t focus so much on retirees living in poverty. I mean, that’s important, and I think this is such a crucial part of bringing knowledge and facts to the table.

Olof Gränsström
We can talk about how a large majority of Sweden’s retirees enjoy a good level of financial security. But it is terrible that there are also retirees living in poverty.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, exactly, and that’s really the fundamental challenge in general—that things become so extreme. If you say that most people are doing well, it’s interpreted to mean that no one is doing poorly. And both can actually be true—and really, the more people who are doing well, the easier it is to help those who are struggling. That should really be the conclusion. But that’s where we need to emphasize much more that even one person living in poverty is still a problem. But one thing that really stood out to me was…

Torbjörn Sjöström
Because we talk a lot about this very issue—the image of retirement and pensioners living in poverty—and that it does exist, but it’s by no means the group that stands out among the general population here. Instead, it’s women aged 35–49. And point by point—one of the lowest figures being that 40% say they don’t have money left at the end of the month—compared to 23% of young men and 27% of young women. So here we have a new group that policymakers… don’t talk about very much.

Torbjörn Sjöström
It's an ambiguous group.

Olof Gränsström
Yes. Because, after all, it’s a cross-section of the Swedish people.

Olof Gränsström
I think that when it comes to highlighting and discussing society, it’s so easy to talk about clearly defined groups. We talk about immigrants, women; we talk about people in rural areas; we talk about those who are stressed and single. Here, we are one.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Among them.

Olof Gränsström
A large group. A statistically significant one. I find that a bit exciting.

Torbjörn Sjöström
And here’s what I think. There haven’t been that many discussions on this topic. But I wanted to organize a seminar for Almedalen. That is, in 2025. About why women are being ignored. Precisely because it’s also about the focus on the extreme. The focus on men. Men are more disloyal and have switched from the Moderates to the Sweden Democrats. Or from the Social Democrats to the Sweden Democrats. So there are a lot of masculine sentiments in the public sphere. Especially right now, with what’s going on. And then there’s even more of it. Harsher penalties and so on, but I wanted to provoke a bit and ask why we take women for granted—and here we also see that they’re the ones who actually have the least financial security, which might also be a risk in terms of pensions, since they can’t afford to set aside as much as they might need.

Olof Gränsström
Or as much as you think you need to set aside.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, that can be the case.

Mattias Munther
Yes, I think it’s important to understand this as well. We touched on this earlier—how the pension system works. Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Precisely because we have a universal pension system that’s built up through work—where it’s your total lifetime earnings that matter. That means part-time work will be taken into account. It means that when I start my working life and when I choose to retire, it will have a major impact on the size of my pension. But I can’t influence those contributions myself, so to speak. Those are political decisions.

Mattias Munther
When it comes to occupational pensions, this is one of those key pieces of the puzzle that’s becoming increasingly important in determining the size of one’s pension. And it explains why pensions have been getting better and better for each cohort that retires now. For 9 out of 10 employees, that’s where the amount set aside is determined. In occupational pensions, this is determined by the labor market parties in collective bargaining agreements. Again, it’s not up to me personally to decide how much of my salary goes toward pensions instead.

Mattias Munther
So it's not so much a question of how much I should set aside myself. That's kind of the next step.

Torbjörn Sjöström
You're right about that, and I actually said it wrong. So it was good that you corrected me, because it's also about having a lower income. Yes.

Mattias Munther
Which, of course… And there, of course, one can discuss what that balance should look like, but that would require changes to larger systems—whether to take more today or forgo more today in exchange for a larger pension.

Olof Gränsström
Did you say that the pension had gone up?

Mattias Munther
Yes, pensions have improved, absolutely. But then it’s important to note that we’ve also seen very strong income growth for those who work—that is, real wage increases—which means we’ve become wealthier. That’s incredibly positive, but if pensions don’t keep pace with that growth, well, then the discussion goes like this: in relative terms, pensions have fared worse. They’ve performed well—they’ve improved—and retirees can afford more than previous generations, but not as quickly as wages have risen.

Olof Gränsström
Because I think there’s kind of an interesting picture of retirees here that you can sense in this report and these surveys. What we found when we wrote this report—well, for one thing, retirees are perhaps the group that feels the most secure financially. And then when you ask people, “Do you think your retirement will give you a good life?”—37 percent say yes. Just over a third believe that their retirement will give them a good life.

Olof Gränsström
I think there's some kind of conflict there.

Mattias Munther
Yes, and it’s interesting to consider where that disconnect comes from. It could also be related to knowledge and information. Have people looked at their own projections, or do they have a gut feeling, a sense of how the media portrays pensions, or something like that? That’s the next thing to investigate, then—why.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yeah, that’s right. And then, unfortunately, it’s also pretty thoughtless to talk about age and retirement in general. If you think about yourself, getting old isn’t fun. It’s nice. You’d rather stay stuck in your 30s. Although, with the money you have now, that would be fantastic. Or maybe not. But it would be dangerous. Still, there’s definitely a general sense of anxiety surrounding issues of age in general.

Torbjörn Sjöström
I also think one thing people don’t really grasp is their own quality of life. Now, people might think—like, they imagine that a 67-year-old is somehow an 85-year-old, meaning they’re somehow younger—so by the time you’re approaching 50 or over 50, like I am, you’re already considered ancient. Personally, I don’t agree with that, so there’s something about this too that makes it hard to grasp and difficult—and yet people tend to sweep itswept under the rug, so to speak, even though it’s absolutely crucial for society as a whole and, of course, for one’s own family.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Personal safety. But that does make things more difficult in general.

Olof Gränsström
I think this particular issue of trust is so fascinating to explore. They seem to feel, after all… It’s also a group that often has money left over at the end of the month. But those of us who are about to retire—we don’t think we’ll be off too badly.

Olof Gränsström
Is it because we haven’t made these projections? Is it because we haven’t opened this orange envelope? Now you just taught me here that… It’s not up to me to decide how much is allocated to the official residence; that’s determined through central negotiations. It’s part of the Swedish model that determines that. How much do I actually need to do? Have we made too much of this personal responsibility?

Mattias Munther
No, I’d say it’s possible that one simply has to understand where one’s own responsibility lies. Yes, but it comes down to the fact that we’ve transitioned to a system within the public pension system where every year counts—where the individual’s lifetime earnings are supposed to determine the pension. We can remind ourselves that under the previous pension system, before the 1990s agreement, it was the 15 best years that were used to determine the pension level.

Mattias Munther
So it doesn’t really matter that much. People are more forgiving of the life choices you make during your career and so on. It’s important to understand that, as an individual. That was back in the ’90s—haven’t we moved past that? Yes, but I mean, I think things have gotten better. And we’re seeing a much more equal workplace now than what previous generations experienced. Which is, of course, what older retirees today have their pensions based on. So, even though there’s still work to be done.

Mattias Munther
For a more equitable workplace today. But things have certainly improved, and that means pensions are also becoming a little more equitable with each passing year. The same goes for occupational pensions. No, you can’t decide how much is set aside, but younger generations do have the opportunity—and the responsibility—to choose how their money is invested in a different way. You don’t have to choose.

Mattias Munther
What happens if I don’t make a choice? Then the funds are placed in a default option that the parties or someone else has negotiated. Yes, so the money is invested, and you receive a return based on that. But the point here is—going back to knowledge—that not everyone has to make an active choice. But everyone needs to check: what happens to the money that’s set aside? I mean, most people don’t even know how much is set aside for their pension each month. So you have a sense of it. That’s the first thing: see how much is set aside.

Mattias Munther
I’d really like it if employers included that on the pay stub so that it kind of shows: “Here’s your salary, but I’m also setting aside these thousand-krona amounts for you every month in your occupational pension.” It’s also to spark interest in—well, what happens to that money, anyway? We can see that with personal savings, people can be really engaged—they might actively manage their stock portfolio or track their mutual funds. But they don’t do anything about their occupational pension, which is sometimes a larger savings vehicle. Or, for most people, it’s a much larger savings vehicle.

Olof Gränsström
That is where most of Sweden's capital is concentrated, apart from the fact that they are truly wealthy.

Olof Gränsström
A large portion of people's savings goes toward their retirement.

Mattias Munther
I usually call it the “forgotten million” of occupational pensions. Because, in the end, it amounts to millions for the vast majority of people. I should have an interest in seeing how they’re managed. Whether I’m just curious or want to make an active choice, I still need to know what I have right now in order to decide if I want to make another choice.

Olof Gränsström
I have to admit that I’m one of those people who doesn’t have a complete handle on my occupational pensions. I’ve had too many employers, so I know they’re also very scattered. But you say it’s not a lost cause just because I haven’t invested the money—because the money has been invested anyway.

Mattias Munther
Yes, the money is still working for you. What might be an increased risk—one you might not want—is that a pension is also about security in the here and now. If you don’t live to a ripe old age in good health—which is the main scenario—and you were to die prematurely. What happens to the money then? What would you want to happen to the money then? General generosity. Well, unfortunately, that’s not possible. The option you have with a pension is that it’s shared with a group of your peers.

Mattias Munther
Or you can specify that you want your pension to be paid out to your immediate family if something happens—that is, your spouse, partner, or children. But that has to be an active choice. And quite often, the money belongs solely to you and no one else until you make that active choice. This is especially true for occupational pensions. In those cases, you may need to make an active choice for the money to go to your family.

Olof Gränsström
Because what I think—what I’m kind of getting at here—is that I believe there’s a lot of concern that I haven’t done enough. I haven’t made this choice. I probably should have done more. But actually, here’s the thing. Yes, by making smarter choices, you can increase efficiency. But the money is working anyway. Without that, it’s actually what seems to be creating this uncertainty. That’s what you need to get under control—knowing exactly how much money I have.

Olof Gränsström
The Forgotten Million. Because this uncertainty—it’s often what… What makes you feel, “I don’t trust this.” “I don’t think I’ll get enough money.” You just don’t know.

Torbjörn Sjöström
But I also believe one thing: it might be safer not to make a choice because you realize that if you do choose, you’ll have made the wrong decision. In other words, if you don’t choose, at least you haven’t made the wrong choice.

Torbjörn Sjöström
With this reform, we went from a situation where you had absolutely no say in how your pension money was managed to one where you now… can have a say. And that can also become a barrier for some people. They feel that it’s the safest option. You don’t even trust anyone. It’s one thing to have a few thousand kronor that you save and set aside. Then you have it, just like you do now. But for the future.

Mattias Munther
And this shift in responsibility and opportunities—it’s happening, too. It’s also taking place in the occupational pension sector. As I said, this typically applies to those born 79 years later. Then you can make choices regarding your entire occupational pension. Meanwhile, those retiring now still have a large portion of their pension in an older system where the idea was to work a certain number of years and thereby receive a certain percentage of their salary as an occupational pension. Back then, that wasn’t affected by how the stock market performed; rather, it was the employer who was required to pay that percentage of the salary regardless of the cost, so to speak.

Mattias Munther
So this shift is already underway, and that’s what we’re working really hard to help people understand. So this… What opportunities have opened up, but also what you need to keep track of yourself. And as I said, it’s about getting a picture of how your pension is built up, what options you have to choose from, and doing a simple analysis of, well, what do I actually have? And does it suit me? That’s where you should start. It’s not that I have to make the choice for you, because then you might get this feeling of, “But what’s the right thing to do?”

Mattias Munther
But first, I need to get a handle on things: What happens when I make a withdrawal? How is the money managed? Who does the work? And is this right for me?

Olof Gränsström
One thing we saw in the report was that 87% believe that making active pension choices is important. 55% say they should do more. Only about a quarter—a little less than a quarter—say they understand.

Mattias Munther
And if you look at the numbers, typically 6 or 7 out of 10 people don't vote at all.

Mattias Munther
It really ties in with this feeling that I should have done more because I haven’t reviewed that, and then I’m back to the idea that the first thing you should do is simply gain control and gather information. How much time does that take? Sure, the first time you do this, you might need to spend an hour. A week? No, I’m talking about a single instance. And then, when you do this annual checkup—like when you get your car inspected or go to the dentist—to review this on an ongoing basis once you’re in control, we’re talking about a quarter of an hour a year.

Olof Gränsström
Then I feel, then I think, what the hell, you guys haven’t really done a good job here, Mattias. If people are walking around worried. I’d be nice about it. Yeah, you’d be nice about it. I’m kidding, yeah. As for people, the effort put in is pretty low anyway. Just to check things out. We see that most people are pretty satisfied in the end anyway.

Olof Gränsström
Why are we so worried, then? This really is a matter of knowledge. We definitely need some financial education here.

Mattias Munther
Yes, and we usually say that this is the industry’s biggest challenge, and when you talk about retirement, people really listen when someone is over 60 or 55. And as long as they feel most secure about the future. Sure, but then they’re really interested in retirement planning and things like that. But you want to talk to the people who have the most time to act. The difference is, it’s educationally too early because they aren’t really listening yet, and if you’re going to talk to someone who’s 60 or older, it might be financially too late.

Mattias Munther
So that’s the dilemma. It’s really easy to talk about retirement with someone who’s about to retire and needs to plan for it. It’s certainly an important life event, of course, but for those who will influence the amount of their retirement benefits, the sooner they start looking into this, the better. The sooner they understand what goes into building their retirement benefits, the easier it will be to plan.

Torbjörn Sjöström
And that brings us to another aspect that I think is very interesting to highlight here as well. It’s about when people would like to retire. Because now, of course, the target retirement age has been raised. Yet 62% say they’d like to retire before age 63. And then we have another 39% who say between 64 and 66. And the recommended retirement age is, of course…

Olof Gränsström
67. Yes.

Mattias Munther
And it will be… It will be 68 in a little while… It will rise in line with the increase in life expectancy. But right now, it’s 67.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, and then there are only 19 percent left who say 67 and older. And one thing that’s obviously the most important—since we’re talking about lifetime earnings—is that while the beginning counts, the end likely counts even more. Because, to some extent, you have a little more income then—or likely a higher income—than when you first enter the workforce. So sure, all the years are important, but the final years become even more important in a way, purely…

Mattias Munther
An early retirement like this is expensive, and it clearly requires a lot of capital to finance.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, and here we saw mainly young men who, to a much greater extent, said they would like to leave really early. And here, one might wonder a bit about what that plan is. Is it some kind of Elon Musk and Bitcoin dream?

Mattias Munther
I’ve been working on pension issues at all different levels for 20 years. The dream of early retirement—the younger you are, the clearer that dream is. But I also think that’s connected to how hard it is to imagine yourself in the future. You’re talking about a complete stranger when you’re not trying to think of yourself. I looked in the mirror this morning. So I think it’s pretty human not to be able to see that far ahead.

Mattias Munther
It seems impossible to work until age 67 when you’ve just established yourself in the job market—or when you’re in the prime of your life.

Olof Gränsström
But also—as we saw in this report—even those who are approaching 55–60 want to retire earlier. Even if you’re nearing the end of your career and should have a job that…

Torbjörn Sjöström
And here, too, opinions were divided, because some really wanted to leave right away, while others who were closer to retirement age—or even wanted to work longer—felt differently. And this is perhaps where the individual dimension comes in: your perspective on your job. A large group—22 percent—doesn’t believe they’ll be able to keep working until retirement. And of course, these can be physically demanding jobs. For some, it may feel like their bodies just won’t hold up. It’s a completely different kind of challenge, of course, but it’s a reality for a certain group of people.

Torbjörn Sjöström
But that doesn't apply to the young guys who feel like they've outgrown the team, so I'll set the money aside beforehand.

Mattias Munther
That’s why discussing how the labor market works is very much a matter of pension policy. How can we ensure that the transition goes smoothly, and that we have a work environment that allows more people to work longer? Thank you for watching. So that we can make the most of all the skills, energy, and willingness to continue working that exist. Because even though this survey shows that many people dream of early retirement, we can see from other surveys that the 55–74 age group, in particular, has a huge number of untapped working hours.

Mattias Munther
In other words, many people say they’d like to work more than they do today. I could work more hours; I’d like to return to the labor market. Together with the Plus Commission, we ran the numbers and concluded that we’re missing out on 70 billion in growth if we had taken advantage of all this untapped potential. So there’s clearly something in the labor market that isn’t working when it comes to matching people with the right skills. This contradicts that a bit, but it just goes to show that these counselors have the drive and the will.

Olof Gränsström
And that was the interesting part, as you mentioned, Torbjörn—up until about age 55, it was pretty clear that people wanted to take early retirement. After 55, opinions diverge. There are those who wanted to retire right away, and those who thought, “Well, 74 isn’t that old—I should be able to handle that.”

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, exactly—except for women aged 35–49, where the trend stood out again, but in that case it probably has a lot to do with physically demanding jobs, especially in healthcare: low-paying and also very physically taxing, where you don’t really grasp the situation—maybe you’re also a single parent and realize that juggling these two jobs becomes unsustainable. I mean, the work at home and at the job. So there’s a bit of a… But exactly, that’s how it is. But at the same time, this is where the present kind of feeds into the future, in a way.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Because right now we’re really talking about labor market policy. It’s not as if the problem just goes away because people have turned 60 or older. Partly in terms of skills and resources, but at the same time, we also have fairly high unemployment rates in Sweden. So, we have a need for increased economic growth, and the labor market must grow as well.

Mattias Munther
Which is, of course, a very pressing issue right now. Yes, and at the same time, we hear people talking about a skills shortage in many industries, yet we see here that we have a group of highly educated, skilled workers aged 55 and older who are not being utilized. So there’s certainly something here that should be possible to address.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yeah, well, actually, I’m going to say something a little out there, but identity politics as such has gotten to the point where young people can only speak for young people, or older people can only speak for older people. There’s a sense that employers are more willing to hire a young person on a probationary basis than an older person, who’ll likely want a permanent position. So the risk is that priorities get a little mixed up. Because employers feel they can afford to take a chance—it’s less costly to take a chance on a young person—but there’s also a higher probability that they’ll make a mistake.

Torbjörn Sjöström
But as an entrepreneur, you end up in a situation of risk mitigation, which is a very sensitive issue to tackle in Sweden. But we have to start looking at the labor market. Especially if we’re also talking about transition, for example, and technological developments. Once again, we’re faced with those massive political decisions that need to be made. Pensions are part of that—a very, very important part—but it’s really about our entire labor market and all that. That kind of conversation is missing right now, and I think the public understands it, but in the public sphere, people don’t even dare to discuss it.

Olof Gränsström
Maybe I should stop talking about retirement? Yeah, you mean talk about work? Yes, but you know, kind of like what you’re both getting at—that we should probably… I mean, the pension issue becomes, well, it becomes like an island. It’s all about this thing that’s supposed to happen when you retire—it’s far off, it’s unclear, it’s the end—then I’ll step off the job market and I’ll get to enjoy the fruits of a long life, and I’m not sure if I’ll actually get that. But really, maybe we should stop talking about it as a separate part of our lives—and I’m getting a little visionary here—but instead talk about it as if it were an extension of our lives.

Olof Gränsström
The point is that there’s a working life… Retirement, education—it’s all integrated in some way. This isn’t a separate issue for people who are 70 and older.

Mattias Munther
The traditional view of a career is that you get an education, then you work, and then you have time to relax as a retiree. That’s kind of how sequential it’s supposed to be. But that’s not how it works, especially with the rapid technological developments you’re talking about. In other words, you’re going to need multiple careers. Having multiple careers and constantly updating your skills—we’re already seeing that, for many people, this leads to a smoother transition between work and retirement. For example, combining part-time work with retirement in your final years, or keeping one foot in the workforce after retirement through mentoring. There are so many possibilities, and we’re already seeing them.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, and I have to say that, too, because that’s where I think Skandia is really impressive. Because you actually take a broader perspective on these issues. Spontaneously, you might just think, “Why are you doing this?” Then we pause for a moment, as we’re doing now, and realize, “Wait a minute, this is part of a much larger economic system.” And that’s what I hope for in general with Globenot, too—and I know you agree with Olof on this as well—that we need to take a much broader, almost macroeconomic perspective. Because society is changing so much; we have to look at the economy in a different way.

Torbjörn Sjöström
We need to look at the labor market in a different way. But above all, we must never forget that people are at the heart of it all. We’re not going to have AI taking over. Okay, if we did, we’d have other problems. But I don’t think we’re there yet. So we need to look at this in a completely different way. And not tomorrow—but right now. And I’d still like to give you some credit here. Because I like this. It took me a while to get it. Maybe that says more about me. But the fact is that you’re addressing a great many major social issues. Issues that aren’t just about the here and now, but about long-term thinking.

Torbjörn Sjöström
I think that's really cool and fun to have.

Olof Gränsström
Maybe we should record another podcast where we invite a savings expert. You’re a retirement planner. We’ll invite a savings expert. We’ll invite a sustainability expert, too. Because this is, after all, about how I manage my personal savings—not just my retirement savings. It affects me as a retiree, too. If I keep track of my retirement savings, it’s not that hard to know how much I have in my employer-sponsored pension. Well, yes, it affects how much I need to save in other forms of savings. But it also affects whether I walk around feeling worried that I’m not doing enough.

Olof Gränsström
Or sustainability and the legacy I leave behind. But make sure your money is working for you.

Mattias Munther
Yes, we touched on that at the beginning as well—the significance and importance of occupational pensions. We’ve been assuming that you have a job with an occupational pension, but that’s not a given. There’s no legal requirement for it. And if you’re self-employed or an entrepreneur, then you’re the one who has to provide that security yourself. And that’s a significant portion of the security you need to be able to retire later on. So there are certainly risk groups, if you will, when it comes to retirement.

Mattias Munther
It’s precisely when you don’t have an employer-sponsored pension—when you’re self-employed—that you need to take on much greater responsibility yourself.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Yes, and this also presents a rather significant political challenge. We’re seeing right now that there are a great many specific issues at hand. But we need some form of socioeconomic reform. We need to review the tax system. That should have been done 15 years ago. It’s no more urgent now than it was then. I don’t think the lock would be ready in time. Actually, it’s been a long time coming—it’s felt endless. But they say it will be ready sometime this fall. They haven’t said when exactly, so maybe it will be part of the fund tax reform, but I don’t think so.

Torbjörn Sjöström
Only time will tell. Right? But it’s exactly these kinds of questions—and that’s what I find interesting here, too. Because our time here is almost up, but we can take a little… We’ve covered a lot of ground, but it’s important to actually pause for a moment, look up a little more, and not just say that everything’s going down the drain. Whose fault is it? I don’t know—is there anything we’ve forgotten to talk about so far that we feel we need to add?

Mattias Munther
No, but I think what the report so clearly shows is that financial security is linked to control and predictability. I think that’s the most important takeaway here, and how can you achieve that in all these areas—whether it’s… short-term personal finances right now with a financial buffer, then long-term savings, and ultimately, how you’ll live as a retiree. That’s what it comes down to: control and stability.

Olof Gränsström
If I were to offer any advice, it would be this: if we look at the relatively large percentage of people who feel they don’t have control over their retirement savings. I’m worried about how things will turn out. You say—and I’m going to give it a try—that it’s not that hard to figure it out. It’s hard to make sure you get a good, really high pension, but this kind of management doesn’t take hours a week or even hours a month. It just takes a little time each year.

Mattias Munther
Absolutely, and we’re uniquely positioned to provide that level of transparency and control thanks to MinPension, which is a partnership between the government and pension companies. You just log in, and then you have… everything in one place—a complete overview.

Mattias Munther
And it gives you that perfect overview of how things work, where you can see all the areas where you can make active choices yourself. Not the insurance coverage—that’s not available yet—but when it comes to investments and things like that, where do I have active choices to make? And where is all my retirement savings? So we’re in a unique position, and that’s why I can also say that it’s as simple as it is to get a handle on things right here in Sweden. Because it’s not the same in other countries.

Torbjörn Sjöström
No, but we are actually quite unique in many ways—this is great, and there are so many questions we’ll come back to later—and that’s partly why I hope Globenot will be able to make a difference, too. A big thank you to Mattias and Scandia for sponsoring this report. It’s available for download on our website. We’ll follow up in other ways as well. It’s not finished just because it’s been published. There’s much more to discuss there. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Thank you.